[kodykiss]

skyactiver
Ottawa, Canada
about 4 hours ago · #9
Road Trip said:
Original Post
Mazda 3's header is an absolute work of art, and more importantly is intricately designed with unequal length pipes to ensure best scavenging of exhaust gases, and consequently has one of the highest, if not the highest OEM compression ratio in the industry, 13:1. Engine discussion starts around 3:05.

Here is a detailed video by by Chief Mazda Engineer Dave Coleman showing it, and how/why it works so well, with picture for those who choose not to see the entire fantastic video.

youtube


It is certainly is a great design, and you brought up a good point. The stock Mazda headers on the Mazda 3 and Miata ND skyactiv have unequal lengths. This wasn't done by accident or to cut costs... Unequal length 4-2-1 headers worked best on this engine based on much prototype dyno testing done by Goodwin Racing and OVT on the Miata and Mazda 3 skyactiv platforms. Unfortunately, the MZstore header is equal length...

This Miata ND long-tube header is the best aftermarket 4-2-1 skyactiv header on the market (including plenty of 3rd party dyno testing to prove it), and yet, there is currently no equivalent product for the Mazda 3. Cost of manufacturing likely plays a huge role, as there are few willing to pay big $$ for a long-tube header (long-tube header and mid-pipe cost nearly 2 grand):

COMBO PPE Stainless LONG TUBE MAX TORQUE Header and Midpipe with Resonator and Converter for MX5ND
Post Edited
Last edited by skyactiver - about 4 hours ago
Road Trip
online
Pacific Northwest
about 6 hours ago · #8
Mazda 3's header is an absolute work of art, and more importantly is intricately designed with unequal length pipes to ensure best scavenging of exhaust gases, and consequently has one of the highest, if not the highest OEM compression ratio in the industry, 13:1. Engine discussion starts around 3:05.

Here is a detailed video by by Chief Mazda Engineer Dave Coleman showing it, and how/why it works so well, with picture for those who choose not to see the entire fantastic video.

youtube
Attachments

Post Edited
Last edited by Road Trip - about 5 hours ago
skyactiver
Ottawa, Canada
about 7 hours ago · #7
kodykiss said:
Original Post
So some of you may have seen me around but I have decided to show everyone the car and give a sound clip!

Mods: e54 tune done by OVtuning
Headers- MZstore
Mid piping-Corksport
Axle back-borla
Intake-injen
Fuel catalyst (octane booster) not a stupid additive its a permanent mod
JBR 88 RMM
RSB

Sorry about the last forum didn't realize the videos didnt upload. Making this easier for everyone by providing youtube links. You haters sad my mazda 3 is faster than anyone in this forum? And there is 0 knock???? You guys really doubt Matt's tuning shame on you all.

https://youtu.be/FDh0mpML3No

https://youtu.be/xYIneiuifes

 

[arathol]

Not quite sure what to make of the above post....?

​

However-

This Miata ND long-tube header is the best aftermarket 4-2-1 skyactiv header on the market (including plenty of 3rd party dyno testing to prove it), and yet, there is currently no equivalent product for the Mazda 3. Cost of manufacturing likely plays a huge role, as there are few willing to pay big $$ for a long-tube header (long-tube header and mid-pipe cost nearly 2 grand):

The reason there is no equivalent header is because the 3 already has a really good 4-2-1 header with long tubes that works very well. Nobody has been able to get better results from an aftermarket header on the 3 yet. The OEM header on the Miata is quite different due to packaging limitations. The SkyActiv header used in the 3 just does not fit in the ND, so a smaller header that is far less efficient was used. Thats why the 2.0 in the 3 makes 155 hp on 89 octane while the ND needs to run 91 to do the same thing. Scavenging is much improved and as a result cylinder temps are lower in the 3, so the 3 less prone to detonation allowing use of lower octane fuel.

Chances are whatever this header from the MZR store is its not any better than the OEM unit and may not be as good. Dyno numbers?

 

[JDabzzz]

Would be curious to see some dyno numbers as well. Mainly curious about the E54 tune. 2.0 or 2.5?

 

[DCNOS18]

Would be curious to see some dyno numbers as well. Mainly curious about the E54 tune. 2.0 or 2.5?

I am also curious to know whether this is the 2.0 or the 2.5

 

[arathol]

I am also curious to know whether this is the 2.0 or the 2.5

Apparently a 2014 2.0l car.

 

[kodykiss]

Hi everyone Arathol the car is much faster compared to my e54 tune without headers and with headers there is quite a big difference... be skeptical I will prove you wrong yet again when i drop cams in and go dyno.

 

[kodykiss]

Yes it is a 2.0 2016. Got it with 0 miles on the clock and have been slowly modding since I first got it a year ago.

 

[arathol]

Hi everyone Arathol the car is much faster compared to my e54 tune without headers and with headers there is quite a big difference... be skeptical I will prove you wrong yet again when i drop cams in and go dyno.

Numbers with and without those headers, no other changes ? Seat of the pants feel doesn't really mean anything. Louder is not the same as faster.

 

[DCNOS18]

Hi everyone Arathol the car is much faster compared to my e54 tune without headers and with headers there is quite a big difference... be skeptical I will prove you wrong yet again when i drop cams in and go dyno.

Those are some pretty big claims saying that you are the fastest 3 in these forums especially since you have the 2.0L and that there are a few people in these forums that have done these types of mods to the 2.5L. I doubt the headers that Mazda spent hundreds of hours engineering to run on 89 octane while having a 13:1 compression ratio could be bested by some company out of Thailand. Some of my friends RACE cars don't even run a 13:1 compression ratio and they are running on 115 octane or methanol, so I can conclude that it is a major accomplishment that Mazda is able to run such high compression ratio even with a relatively low octane fuel. All of this is possible due to ingenious header design. I could be wrong and hope that those headers do make a measurable and significant power increase, though I am very skeptical that these may make even less power than stock.

 

[arathol]

Those are some pretty big claims saying that you are the fastest 3 in these forums especially since you have the 2.0L and that there are a few people in these forums that have done these types of mods to the 2.5L. I doubt the headers that Mazda spent hundreds of hours engineering to run on 89 octane while having a 13:1 compression ratio could be bested by some company out of Thailand. Some of my friends RACE cars don't even run a 13:1 compression ratio and they are running on 115 octane or methanol, so I can conclude that it is a major accomplishment that Mazda is able to run such high compression ratio even with a relatively low octane fuel. All of this is possible due to ingenious header design. I could be wrong and hope that those headers do make a measurable and significant power increase, though I am very skeptical that these may make even less power than stock.

The thing is the car is tuned for e54. That alone would account for any power increases and the viability of the header system. Regular gasoline with those headers would almost certainly cause the engine to knock and pull the timing.

And just what is a "permanent octane booster"?

:rice:​

 

[rdf_mz3]

And just what is a "permanent octane booster"?

:rice:​

lol, I think hes talking about something like this

https://fitchfuelcatalyst.com/automotive/

The fact it has a cheesy infomercial speaks for its self - I feel like someone bought this hook, line & sinker the moment she says "increases horsepower by 200-300" and didn't wait to hear her say, "just kidding".

In all reality I looks like an additional fuel filter or something, I don't know - I agree with you - just screams butt dyno and rice.


:gotrice-1:

 

[skyactiver]

]
The reason there is no equivalent header is because the 3 already has a really good 4-2-1 header with long tubes that works very well. Nobody has been able to get better results from an aftermarket header on the 3 yet. The OEM header on the Miata is quite different due to packaging limitations. The SkyActiv header used in the 3 just does not fit in the ND, so a smaller header that is far less efficient was used. Thats why the 2.0 in the 3 makes 155 hp on 89 octane while the ND needs to run 91 to do the same thing. Scavenging is much improved and as a result cylinder temps are lower in the 3, so the 3 less prone to detonation allowing use of lower octane fuel.

Chances are whatever this header from the MZR store is its not any better than the OEM unit and may not be as good. Dyno numbers?

The reason the Miata needs premium to make 155 hp is not actually related to its header. Even the 2012-13 Mazda 3 skyactiv 2.0 with its lowered 12:1 compression and poor scavenging 4-1 shorty header made 155 hp. According to an earlier interview with Dave Coleman, premium is recommended for the Miata because of its more aggressively tuned mid-range. I've noticed this when comparing the stock files of the 2 cars, but they are basically tuned them the same in the top-end where they make 155 hp.

I agree that the long-tube in the Mazda 3 is a better design than the shorter Miata header, but there is still some room for improvement. The header cat could be deleted, and diameter of the pipes could be wider. That is part of the strategy Goodwin implemented in their successful Miata ND long-tube header. The question is however... how much more power could be made with a good aftermarket design, and is it worth it based on the cost and extra noise? A GOOD aftermarket long-tube would be very costly like the GWR design, and likely not provide much dollar-for-dollar performance unless you run high amounts of ethanol with tuning or install a supercharger.

 

[skyactiver]

You haters sad my mazda 3 is faster than anyone in this forum? And there is 0 knock???? You guys really doubt Matt's tuning shame on you all.

LOL, we are not doubting Mat's tune. He's been providing great skyactiv tunes for years. Most of us are wondering how much additional power you are making from that header alone (which was not designed by Mat), based on a few shortcomings in its design. As @arathol mentioned, the E54 tune you now have could be responsible for the increased power you are experiencing rather than any additional effect from the MZstore header. The only way to tell whether the header is making additional power would be to dyno your car on the stock header (tuned by Mat) and compare the results to the tuned version with the MZstore header, while leaving all other mods the same (eg. axle-back, mid-pipe, same octane gas, etc.)... Has the MZstore header had any 3rd party dyno results?

And you definitely don't have the fasted Mazda 3 skyactiv 2.0... In North America, we have the option to run E85 which provides higher octane than E54, thereby allowing more power to be made with Mat's tunes. There have also been a few people who have run Mat's cams with E85 tunes.

 

[kodykiss]

You haters sad my mazda 3 is faster than anyone in this forum? And there is 0 knock

? You guys really doubt Matt's tuning shame on you all. QUOTE]

LOL, we are not doubting Mat's tune. He's been providing great skyactiv tunes for years. Most of us are wondering how much additional power you are making from that header alone (which was not designed by Mat), based on a few shortcomings in its design. As @arathol mentioned, the E54 tune you now have could be responsible for the increased power you are experiencing rather than the MZstore header. The only way to tell whether the header is making additional power would be to dyno your car on the stock header (tuned by Mat) and compare the results to the tuned version with the MZstore header, while leaving all other mods the same (eg. axle-back, mid-pipe, same octane gas, etc.)... Has the MZstore header had any 3rd party dyno results?

And you definitely don't have the fasted Mazda 3 skyactiv 2.0... In North American, we have the option to run E85 which provides higher octane than E54, thereby allowing more power to be made with Mat's tunes. There are also a few people who are already running Mat's cams with E85 tunes.

Yes there is a dyno the owner of the Thailand company provided. I will attach below. Also and all you guys nutting over the stock header look at how big, restrictive, and ugly that cat is on there you guys are sheep....

The numbers he provided are only exhaust mods. The designer tuned them himself without e85 and achieved the below dyno result. With my additional mods I say I am around 180 whp my self.

 

[kodykiss]

You keyboard warriors have probably never seen the stock header outside of the car, but after install I bet I dropped about 25 lbs of weight off as well that header you guys glorify is a piece of poop and the reason people with cams and no headers cant make power after 5500 rpms in this car.... absolutely restrictive.

 

[skyactiver]

Yes there is a dyno the owner of the Thailand company provided. I will attach below. Also and all you guys nutting over the stock header look at how big, restrictive, and ugly that cat is on there you guys are sheep....

The numbers he provided are only exhaust mods. The designer tuned them himself without e85 and achieved the below dyno result. With my additional mods I say I am around 180 whp my self.

The dyno you provided does not actually compare stock vs. MZstore, and the shape of the power curve seems wrong. Peak power is being made in the mid range instead of top-end? I can't tell from the graph, but what RPM range is peak power being made? FYI, the GWR long-tube header makes peak power on the dyno above 6500 rpm with E85. A dyno graph from a tuner who compared stock vs. the header is needed.

A bigger cat would actually provide less restriction, as there is more area for the exhaust to flow through. If the header is designed wrongly, it will make less power than the stock header even with the cat. So far we know the position of the oxygen sensor is wrong on the MZstore header, and it is an even design which has not been proven to work well... Just because the header looks beautiful and provides lot's of "bling" doesn't mean it generates any additional power. You can put gold foil over a turd, but it doesn't make it any more desirable lol.

 

[arathol]

The reason the Miata needs premium to make 155 hp is not actually related to its header. Even the 2012-13 Mazda 3 skyactiv 2.0 with its lowered 12:1 compression and poor scavenging 4-1 shorty header made 155 hp. According to an earlier interview with Dave Coleman, premium is recommended for the Miata because of its more aggressively tuned mid-range. I've noticed this when comparing the stock files of the 2 cars, but they are basically tuned them the same in the top-end where they make 155 hp.

I understand that, but in all reality thats just a round about way of saying that the motor in the ND could not get to where it is without a more aggressive tune that needs 91 octane to get there. Mazda could have gotten a significant increase in power if they had developed a proper 4-2-1 tri y for the ND. The 3 makes the same 155 hp without the tune and using 89 octane. The reason is the header design.

I agree that the long-tube in the Mazda 3 is a better design than the shorter Miata header, but there is still some room for improvement. The header cat could be deleted, and diameter of the pipes could be wider. That is part of the strategy Goodwin implemented in their successful Miata ND long-tube header. The question is however... how much more power could be made with a good aftermarket design, and is it worth it based on the cost and extra noise? A GOOD aftermarket long-tube would be very costly like the GWR design, and likely not provide much dollar-for-dollar performance unless you run high amounts of ethanol with tuning or install a supercharger.

A cat delete would not be workable due to CARB restrictions. The motor would not be able to meet emission requirements so thats not going to happen.
Using larger pipe diameter might kill the power. One of the things that header design relies on for scavenging is exhaust energy. The 13:1 compression makes for high energy exhaust flow. Make the pipes larger and you lose some of that velocity and some of the scavenging effect with it. So, you get less exhaust gas extraction, which means higher cylinder temps which in turn leads to being more prone to detonation.
Also note that the GWR longtube header is not plug and play. It needs a lot of tuning work to get the advertised power gains. Brian even goes so far as to recommend not using it unless you are a pro racer or pro-shop due to the difficulty of tuning the engine to work with it.
A good long tube does not have to be that expensive. The GWR longtube costs what it does because its not mass produced, but hand made by a pro shop one at a time. Its almost a made to order item with very limited numbers available.

 

[skyactiver]

I understand that, but in all reality thats just a round about way of saying that the motor in the ND could not get to where it is without a more aggressive tune that needs 91 octane to get there. Mazda could have gotten a significant increase in power if they had developed a proper 4-2-1 tri y for the ND. The 3 makes the same 155 hp without the tune and using 89 octane. The reason is the header design.

I think you missed my point above. The header in the Miata did not impede the output of the engine. It's 4-2-1 design isn't terrible, but not as good as the Mazda 3s. Only the Miata got the more aggressive tune by Mazda; Hence, this is why 91 is recommended, but not required. Its not resulting from the header. If the Mazda 3 had the tune, Mazda would also likely recommended 91. To be more clear, the tune does not affect top-end output (155 hp)... Only mid-range characteristics which liven the response of the car. The 2012-13 Mazda 3 with an awful header did not get this more aggressive tune and still got 155 hp on 87 octane. If you follow the Miata forums, you will also see that the Miata actually gains around the same power as the Mazda 3 when tuned on pump gas (with stock header). As all the other engine components are essentially matched, this would suggest that the Miata header isn't that bad.

A cat delete would not be workable due to CARB restrictions. The motor would not be able to meet emission requirements so thats not going to happen.
Using larger pipe diameter might kill the power. One of the things that header design relies on for scavenging is exhaust energy. The 13:1 compression makes for high energy exhaust flow. Make the pipes larger and you lose some of that velocity and some of the scavenging effect with it. So, you get less exhaust gas extraction, which means higher cylinder temps which in turn leads to being more prone to detonation.
Also note that the GWR longtube header is not plug and play. It needs a lot of tuning work to get the advertised power gains. Brian even goes so far as to recommend not using it unless you are a pro racer or pro-shop due to the difficulty of tuning the engine to work with it.
A good long tube does not have to be that expensive. The GWR longtube costs what it does because its not mass produced, but hand made by a pro shop one at a time. Its almost a made to order item with very limited numbers available.

Not sure why you are bringing up CARB regulations as I was not stating that Mazda should have deleted the cat. I meant to say that a cat delete would free up power gains for a similar unequal length 4-2-1 aftermarket design. Most aftermarket Mazda header companies do not make a cat option for the header as they are focused on maximum performance. People that buy these headers know and accept that they are not CARB approved.

Similarly, I was not implying that Mazda should change the diameter... Simply that aftermarket companies should do this. The Miata and Mazda 3 headers use similar small diameters tubes. All aftermarket header companies have increased the diameter of their headers for the Miata, and never did this cause a drop in power when tuned. For example, the GWR 4-2-1 short and long-tube headers largely increased the diameter which resulted in big gains in power across the power band. Far larger than could be achieved with the stock header tuned. So increasing the diameter of the stock header will not cause a drop in power when tuned properly. And when you buy a header, you pretty much need to get it tuned to take full advantage. So my main point is that there is still room for improvement in the stock design when considering the maximum gains that you can get out of it..

 

[Midnightsky228]

opcorn: this thread is full of fun facts, learning, oh and many lulz

 

[kodykiss]

The dyno you provided does not actually compare stock vs. MZstore, and the shape of the power curve seems wrong. Peak power is being made in the mid range instead of top-end? I can't tell from the graph, but what RPM range is peak power being made? FYI, the GWR long-tube header makes peak power on the dyno above 6500 rpm with E85. A dyno graph from a tuner who compared stock vs. the header is needed.

A bigger cat would actually provide less restriction, as there is more area for the exhaust to flow through. If the header is designed wrongly, it will make less power than the stock header even with the cat. So far we know the position of the oxygen sensor is wrong on the MZstore header, and it is an even design which has not been proven to work well... Just because the header looks beautiful and provides lot's of "bling" doesn't mean it generates any additional power. You can put gold foil over a turd, but it doesn't make it any more desirable lol.

Hey skyactiver Talked to a guy who had done cams to his 2.0 and he had a similar graph, power drops off for this motor around 5500 rpms. However I think since Matt tuned me with the more agressive cam setting and I can push more air out in that upper band my graph probably looks more smooth than the tuners graph. I want to go dyno now but unlike all you big ballers who seem to think Dyno runs are cheap I am going to wait until I get cams dropped in to dyno. I am really hoping for over 200 whp since I found a solid header regardless of what you guys think. I will keep everyone updated. Guess all I can do at this point is prove you all wrong lol.