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Discussion Starter #1
With the coming of the Turbo Mazda 3 Next year I was wondering whether to
bite the bullet and turbo my car although I wont be having the luxury of AWD.
The cost is what Im gauging here in this forum.Possible if someone has done it In Australia
and the insurance .Without AWD this is a sticky point.As I said Im looking costs and all parts needed
I realize that the clutch assembly will need upgrading .

cheers
 

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Well.. Corksport did it and said the clutch needed to be replaced and they were working on finding or fabbing one.

That was the last thing they reported about it..

It would probably be easier and less costly to swap a 2.3L DISI engine in from a Speed and have custom engine and transmission mounts made. The DISI engine is FI and is capable of more power than a DI Sky engine.
CK
 
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Run away if there's no aftermarket turbo manifold. Why not a wet shot of nitrous instead? With safety switches and a tune, it's not as dangerous as people make it seem.

Someone might say... you can get a custom welded manifold and run piggy back injectors or an FMU for cheap... NO. That requires deep pockets, experience, or capable friends. Think about fitment, mass air pressure, heat, tuning, fuel, crankcase ventilation, and other fun things. Not picking on you in particular OP, this story replays all over the net.

If you have $4-10k USD equivalent to burn on a one-off turbo upgrade, there's good condition used turbo cars for $5k. Start with something that either a manufacturer or the aftermarket has already worked out the failures & fitment.

I would have argued with myself 15 years ago on this point as older farts told me what I'm saying now... but honestly, best route is to buy a different car.


Swapping an engine that didn't come with the same model chassis is hit and miss. Depends on how easily everything carries over. At best, you're looking at custom axles and an ECU that likely doesn't talk to the rest of the computers. If someone's developed a kit (harness, ECU, fitment parts) its a better idea.


If you MUST look into forced induction, assuming 1st that the ECU can be tuned to accept 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor on a speed density tune... a front mounted centrifugal supercharger is the safest bet (custom brackets aint cheap at a shop). You can run 4-6 psi with cooler plugs and be fine on any stock motor. For a budget build or daily driver, a centrifugal is the safest because if something goes wrong you can swap a serpentine belt that routes around the s/c pulley and keep driving like nothing happened, 15 minutes later you're back on the road. Can't do that with a turbo. With these Mazda high-compression motors, figure on spraying methanol as well.
 

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Here is the thing - if Corksport, with actual engineers and large resources to back them up, hasn't managed to get something to work yet after all this time, chances are somebody working in their back yard won't be able to either without remortgaging their home.....
The SA-G can be tuned for FI and has been successfully in the ND Miata, but the ECU is different. The ECU in the 3 so far has been tuneable, but only for NA engines. Tuning for FI has as of right now been not reliable or fully functional. There are limiters and firewalls to prevent the engine from imploding, lots of parameters that interact in ways that don't allow FI to work. The SA is not your typical internal combustion motor in any way....
How in the world to do you expect to install a front mounted SC unit, and where? Have you ever looked under the hood of a Mazda 3? The engine is transverse mounted, and there is barely room for the engine....let alone a belt driven SC....Best (and cheapest) bet for FI is a bottom mount exhaust driven turbo, installed under the car at some point in the exhaust stream. No manifold needed, just route the tubing into the existing intake. This is being done already by some builders on many different types of cars.
The SA-G is really only a high compression motor if you look at the numbers. In practice, it only gets those numbers under light load / light throttle conditions, as in cruising in 6th gear at 75 mph on the highway. Put your foot in it and compression drops to about 10...
 

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Here is the thing - if Corksport, with actual engineers and large resources to back them up, hasn't managed to get something to work yet after all this time, chances are somebody working in their back yard won't be able to either without remortgaging their home.....
The SA-G can be tuned for FI and has been successfully in the ND Miata, but the ECU is different. The ECU in the 3 so far has been tuneable, but only for NA engines. Tuning for FI has as of right now been not reliable or fully functional. There are limiters and firewalls to prevent the engine from imploding, lots of parameters that interact in ways that don't allow FI to work. The SA is not your typical internal combustion motor in any way....
How in the world to do you expect to install a front mounted SC unit, and where? Have you ever looked under the hood of a Mazda 3? The engine is transverse mounted, and there is barely room for the engine....let alone a belt driven SC....Best (and cheapest) bet for FI is a bottom mount exhaust driven turbo, installed under the car at some point in the exhaust stream. No manifold needed, just route the tubing into the existing intake. This is being done already by some builders on many different types of cars.
The SA-G is really only a high compression motor if you look at the numbers. In practice, it only gets those numbers under light load / light throttle conditions, as in cruising in 6th gear at 75 mph on the highway. Put your foot in it and compression drops to about 10...
Unsure if directed to OP and OP+ me.

OP is looking for turbo. There's no manifold, no remote >1 bar tuning. Most reasonable next option is s/c so he can tune local in an SD tune and use stock fuel/spark maps. Brackets and fitment aren't the issue... why wouldn't it fit? the s/c doesnt extend transversely beyond the serpentine belt. There's not a hand-spread of room around the engine with a/c compressor removed? A hood cutout can't be made? an inner fender can't be cut? accessories can't be rerouted? No, it can fit. It depends on how much someone wants to fit it (or pays a shop $$$)

Forced induction option boils down to one (1) thing. if the ECU can accept a 2-3 bar MAP sensor. If it can, cool. If not, no dice.

If any tuner can add a 2-3 bar MAP sensor to an n/a engine that reads MAF, then they'll be able to force speed density and bypass the MAF. I'm not suggesting tuning spark or fuel for 3-5 psi. The engine is going to demand stoich AFR a stock fuel system will deliver to injectors. Wideband O2, meth injection @ boost, a step cooler plugs... it'll whine just fine. Is it worth it? ... 30 hp on motor? lower MPG? [just buy a different car]

I get what you're saying about aftermarket not producing a kit, they have to look at return profit. They can't offer a mickey-mouse SD tune with 4 psi because they'll go out of business - that stuff stopped being impressive in 1992. If OP really wants f.i. it can be done.
 

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Unsure if directed to OP and OP+ me.

OP is looking for turbo. There's no manifold, no remote >1 bar tuning. Most reasonable next option is s/c so he can tune local in an SD tune and use stock fuel/spark maps. Brackets and fitment aren't the issue... why wouldn't it fit? the s/c doesnt extend transversely beyond the serpentine belt. There's not a hand-spread of room around the engine with a/c compressor removed? A hood cutout can't be made? an inner fender can't be cut? accessories can't be rerouted? No, it can fit. It depends on how much someone wants to fit it (or pays a shop $$$)

Forced induction option boils down to one (1) thing. if the ECU can accept a 2-3 bar MAP sensor. If it can, cool. If not, no dice.

If any tuner can add a 2-3 bar MAP sensor to an n/a engine that reads MAF, then they'll be able to force speed density and bypass the MAF. I'm not suggesting tuning spark or fuel for 3-5 psi. The engine is going to demand stoich AFR a stock fuel system will deliver to injectors. Wideband O2, meth injection @ boost, a step cooler plugs... it'll whine just fine. Is it worth it? ... 30 hp on motor? lower MPG? [just buy a different car]

I get what you're saying about aftermarket not producing a kit, they have to look at return profit. They can't offer a mickey-mouse SD tune with 4 psi because they'll go out of business - that stuff stopped being impressive in 1992. If OP really wants f.i. it can be done.
Sure it can be done. Anything can be done if you really want to and if you have the money for it. Is it remotely practical? Absolutely not.

The point arathol is making here is that these motors don't work quite like most out there. As mentioned, very high compression ratio. Most tuners don't know how to work with these simply because they are so different. Older engines were great in that it actually wasn't that hard to add a turbo in. With the SA it's all in the tuning. That is why we don't have a turbo kit. Adding nitrous has similar problems.

So sure it CAN be done but it would be so difficult I think that's a moot point. You'd also be severely limited on how much boost you can feed it.

As you've already said, far better to do this to a car more suited to it.
 

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I agree that adding a turbo onto this engine would be opening a can of worms that would likely not be worth it, IMO
Alternatively you could get it tuned with running higher octane (using Boostane or race gas mixed in) to get an addittional 10% power at like 97 octane (beyond the already 20% gain by tuning for 93 octane), I know it's not the same as FI but it's a more feasible way to make more power (there's also nitrous as an option :)).
 

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This engine's power peaks at 6k RPM and uses torque conversion to raise HP. Wouldn't Nitrous blow past that in a heartbeat and make it useless? How would tires grip under that condition?
CK
 

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It really depends on what conditions the rollover from HCCI to spark ign occurs...I mean I'm not ignoring that fact. I'm sure there are layers of maps and its not as simple as reach x rpm and then it rolls over.

Wet nitrous is likely the best route, and a tuner who has access to the maps could find out where combustion pressure stops varying with consistent high-load fuel trims. Spray under those conditions, no tune required with a 20-30 shot. Without that knowledge, I agree that it isn't a smart option.

I suggested the s/c route because it's rpm-based load not combustion pressure based load like a turbo. Would have better luck with simple low psi tuning for it, if deciding on f.i.
 

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It really depends on what conditions the rollover from HCCI to spark ign occurs...I mean I'm not ignoring that fact. I'm sure there are layers of maps and its not as simple as reach x rpm and then it rolls over.

Wet nitrous is likely the best route, and a tuner who has access to the maps could find out where combustion pressure stops varying with consistent high-load fuel trims. Spray under those conditions, no tune required with a 20-30 shot. Without that knowledge, I agree that it isn't a smart option.

I suggested the s/c route because it's rpm-based load not combustion pressure based load like a turbo. Would have better luck with simple low psi tuning for it, if deciding on f.i.
There is no compression ignition. Do you even own a SA-G powered car? From what you are posting it sounds like you have never looked under the hood of a Mazda 3, and are trying to equate a SA-G motor to a Chevy V-8 from 30 years ago....many things have changed since then.....
There is another problem with a SC as has been seen in the MX-5 ND. Edelbrock has developed a SC unit that works with the SA-G motor in the ND. Many users have found that the supercharger burns out the upstream cat in fairly short order. Since in many places you need to have both cats in place to pass inspection, removing the cat isn't an option.

If only doing nitrous were that easy. The SA-G engine has variable compression, so you can't just go dumping it in. It would have to be limited to WOT when CR is lowest. Without knowing what effect nitrous would have on the myriad of engine control sensors, using it would be a crapshoot.


Unsure if directed to OP and OP+ me.

OP is looking for turbo. There's no manifold, no remote >1 bar tuning. Most reasonable next option is s/c so he can tune local in an SD tune and use stock fuel/spark maps. Brackets and fitment aren't the issue... why wouldn't it fit? the s/c doesnt extend transversely beyond the serpentine belt. There's not a hand-spread of room around the engine with a/c compressor removed? A hood cutout can't be made? an inner fender can't be cut? accessories can't be rerouted? No, it can fit. It depends on how much someone wants to fit it (or pays a shop $$$)

Forced induction option boils down to one (1) thing. if the ECU can accept a 2-3 bar MAP sensor. If it can, cool. If not, no dice.

If any tuner can add a 2-3 bar MAP sensor to an n/a engine that reads MAF, then they'll be able to force speed density and bypass the MAF. I'm not suggesting tuning spark or fuel for 3-5 psi. The engine is going to demand stoich AFR a stock fuel system will deliver to injectors. Wideband O2, meth injection @ boost, a step cooler plugs... it'll whine just fine. Is it worth it? ... 30 hp on motor? lower MPG? [just buy a different car]

I get what you're saying about aftermarket not producing a kit, they have to look at return profit. They can't offer a mickey-mouse SD tune with 4 psi because they'll go out of business - that stuff stopped being impressive in 1992. If OP really wants f.i. it can be done.
If it were that easy, it would have been done by now, and well known aftermarket companies with deep pockets have been trying since the motor was introduced. So far, no results that would be marketable..You can't just slap a part or two on and have it run fine. Those days are long gone. Its far more complex than you realize...and as far as boost pressure, 4 or 5 psi is about it without doing internals to lower static CR if you want it to be reliable. That should make about 240 or so at the crank with the 2.0L motor.
 

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There is no compression ignition. Do you even own a SA-G powered car? From what you are posting it sounds like you have never looked under the hood of a Mazda 3, and are trying to equate a SA-G motor to a Chevy V-8 from 30 years ago....many things have changed since then.....
There is another problem with a SC as has been seen in the MX-5 ND. Edelbrock has developed a SC unit that works with the SA-G motor in the ND. Many users have found that the supercharger burns out the upstream cat in fairly short order. Since in many places you need to have both cats in place to pass inspection, removing the cat isn't an option.

If only doing nitrous were that easy. The SA-G engine has variable compression, so you can't just go dumping it in. It would have to be limited to WOT when CR is lowest. Without knowing what effect nitrous would have on the myriad of engine control sensors, using it would be a crapshoot.



If it were that easy, it would have been done by now, and well known aftermarket companies with deep pockets have been trying since the motor was introduced. So far, no results that would be marketable..You can't just slap a part or two on and have it run fine. Those days are long gone. Its far more complex than you realize...and as far as boost pressure, 4 or 5 psi is about it without doing internals to lower static CR if you want it to be reliable. That should make about 240 or so at the crank with the 2.0L motor.
Yes you're correct that I was equating the new X combustion with the older G series, and yes that may be because I don't own an X or the last gen G. Even better, less compression change to work around. What does owning a motor have to do with tuning 101? what does a chevrolet have to do with any of the above convo? When two people are saying the same thing on the net and they argue about it -See bold above- You don't think a WOT 20-30 wet shot above 4500-5000 rpm on a stock 4 cylinder will make a difference?

None of what you say help guide OP toward the 1st step, which is to find a tuner that can run a speed density tune.
 

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Yes you're correct that I was equating the new X combustion with the older G series, and yes that may be because I don't own an X or the last gen G. Even better, less compression change to work around.
Non sequitur.....The SA-X is not available in North America. The SA-G isn't an older engine, its a current engine that is still in production and is totally different than the SA-X.
If you don't own an SA-G car, you must have an MZR motor in an older car. Totally different, not even close to the SA-G tuning wise or anything else.

What does owning a motor have to do with tuning 101? what does a chevrolet have to do with any of the above convo? When two people are saying the same thing on the net and they argue about it -See bold above- You don't think a WOT 20-30 wet shot above 4500-5000 rpm on a stock 4 cylinder will make a difference?

None of what you say help guide OP toward the 1st step, which is to find a tuner that can run a speed density tune.
Tuning 101 as you call it doesn't apply to the SA-G motor. You can't just change one thing and expect it to work, as changing that one thing will change a hundred other things and you'll end up trashing the motor.
What you are telling the OP may have been relevant 20 years ago when hot rodding old school small block Chevrolet motors and such but you just can't do it with this motor and expect good results. Will that shot make a difference? Sure, right up until the cylinder walls explode or the pistons melt. If you can get it to run that is.....
Maybe you should step back and take a good look around at who offers what for this engine in this car. Good tuners are few and far between. As a matter of fact, there is only one out there so far that offers proven reliable results. ONE. Not ten. Not twenty. ONE. That alone should tell you something. If you want to go FI with a turbo as the OP asked, there really isn't anybody who has figured it out enough to make it work reliably, and anybody who makes a claim otherwise is just blowing smoke.....
 

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I've had a few MZRs, duratec, and ecotecs, Hondas and a DSM in the 00s. Had fun with v8's too. Yes that's all old tech, I get that my tuning exp died with real life. But what I don't get is such resistance from a moderator about someone looking to have fun with their car. Is it a dumb idea, YES. Buy a diff car. Limited by internals? people can still have fun with 210-230 hp and show off what they've done. I'm not even gunna go there with the nitrous exploding internals comment.

- SD is supported on G series with diy software (yes I get there's build differences between models and not the same engines), the platform just isn't unlocked in the US. So it can be done on the motor..
Can a real tuning shop work around the platform/VIN if the ECU is similar? As you say, only 1 place has done it (remotely) and others can't or won't try. Sure, with an automatic, it may be more difficult to adapt. With a manual, I'm not convinced regional shops can't give it a stab. There's some odd-duck cars with custom tunes out there that aren't supported by software.
 

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I've had a few MZRs, duratec, and ecotecs, Hondas and a DSM in the 00s. Had fun with v8's too. Yes that's all old tech, I get that my tuning exp died with real life. But what I don't get is such resistance from a moderator about someone looking to have fun with their car. Is it a dumb idea, YES. Buy a diff car. Limited by internals? people can still have fun with 210-230 hp and show off what they've done. I'm not even gunna go there with the nitrous exploding internals comment.

- SD is supported on G series with diy software (yes I get there's build differences between models and not the same engines), the platform just isn't unlocked in the US. So it can be done on the motor..
Can a real tuning shop work around the platform/VIN if the ECU is similar? As you say, only 1 place has done it (remotely) and others can't or won't try. Sure, with an automatic, it may be more difficult to adapt. With a manual, I'm not convinced regional shops can't give it a stab. There's some odd-duck cars with custom tunes out there that aren't supported by software.
There is no resistance, just the facts. Using FI isn't practical because nobody does it or is willing to do it because the ECU is so complex and damage potential is so high. Right now however tuning is limited to NA engines, with about 20% power increase. It would be pretty irresponsible to say that adding FI to any SA-G Mazda 3 can be done easily.
That Ecutek link is irrelevant as the MX-5 is completely different compared to the Mazda 3. Same basic SA-G motor as the Mazda 3 is in the ND1 but different ECU, nothing at all in common with the Mazda 3. You can't use MX-5 tune files or tuning software on the Mazda 3. Yes, an SA-G motor can be fitted with FI....in the MX-5...but there is not the same support for the Mazda 3 unfortunately and doing so would be prohibitively expensive.
ECU Locked? Yes, but then Ecutek doesn't support the Mazda 3 anymore either from what I hear. Epifan with MazdaEdit is what is used these days for the Mazda 3 ECU. You need an ~$800 license to get started if you want to properly tune the Mazda 3 ECU...and a few months to figure out the ECU, then many more to figure to how to make FI work, if you can....Not many shops would be willing to do that for one customer...especially if they know about the complexity beforehand...
There is not a lot difference when tuning an AT or MT car, all the same.....just do the logs, make the changes and repeat until its good....As long as the datalogging is done right an AT car is just as easily tuned as an MT car.

What do you think would happen if a nitrous shot happened when the engine was operating at full 13:1 compression? The result would not be pretty....
 

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There is no resistance, just the facts. Using FI isn't practical because nobody does it or is willing to do it because the ECU is so complex and damage potential is so high. Right now however tuning is limited to NA engines, with about 20% power increase. It would be pretty irresponsible to say that adding FI to any SA-G Mazda 3 can be done easily.
That Ecutek link is irrelevant as the MX-5 is completely different compared to the Mazda 3. Same basic SA-G motor as the Mazda 3 is in the ND1 but different ECU, nothing at all in common with the Mazda 3. You can't use MX-5 tune files or tuning software on the Mazda 3. Yes, an SA-G motor can be fitted with FI....in the MX-5...but there is not the same support for the Mazda 3 unfortunately and doing so would be prohibitively expensive.
ECU Locked? Yes, but then Ecutek doesn't support the Mazda 3 anymore either from what I hear. Epifan with MazdaEdit is what is used these days for the Mazda 3 ECU. You need an ~$800 license to get started if you want to properly tune the Mazda 3 ECU...and a few months to figure out the ECU, then many more to figure to how to make FI work, if you can....Not many shops would be willing to do that for one customer...especially if they know about the complexity beforehand...
There is not a lot difference when tuning an AT or MT car, all the same.....just do the logs, make the changes and repeat until its good....As long as the datalogging is done right an AT car is just as easily tuned as an MT car.

What do you think would happen if a nitrous shot happened when the engine was operating at full 13:1 compression? The result would not be pretty....
Thank you for the tuning info, that's helpful.

Plenty of motors on nitrous running 15-16:1. Lean (fuel) & shot size (o2 volume) are concerns on bottle.

Standard procedure would be just fine --- fuel press. gauge + wideband, test small shot (15) outside motor -WOT at speed-, log fuel pressure, no spray yet. Cooler plugs, safety goodies (window, WOT, AFR cutoff switch), 93 octane + RON booster in the tank, spray at WOT high rpm. If worried about detonation from fuel.. have tuning source 'the one' pull a degree of static timing. Move to 20 wet shot, wash rinse repeat, up to 30. Dyno log above that. Have fun for 5-10 sec. at a time and don't overdo it.

OP has so much info now he'll not move forward with any of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thank all for your thoughts.With the possibility of a AWD T Mazda 3 in 2021 in Oz and its cost at $AU50K the
thought crossed my mind on perhaps a Turbo build but with over 300 ponies on tap AWD system is logical, and that too would add to the build
 

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Good news OP, spoke with a tuner that supports your year model car. Tuning for these run a hybrid MAF/MAP tune that can be set to enrich under boost using the MAP. But the MAF can't unfortunately be tuned around at part throttle or light load w/ boost, so there's no full SD tune available, but it's effectively the same thing under WOT boost. It can be set to add fuel based on manifold pressure at WOT and drop from MAF to mass air pressure enrichment.

As mentioned above, a turbo on a high compression eco-motor is a bad idea and even more with no full SD tuning. I'd look into centrifugal s/c if you want boost, it's safe high-rpm load.

To move forward here's what you need:
(1) find a tuner that supports this type of hybrid MAF/MAP tuning.

(2) A mass-air-pressure (MAP) sensor that comes with calibration data (> 1.0 bar)... it'd be better for the project in the long run if using a 1.5 bar for better resolution + that tops out max 7psi so you won't be tempted. It'll likely have to be spliced into the current MAP wiring b/c I don't believe this year model 3 came with f.i. (I'm not savvy on every Mazda engine in all markets). EDIT- don't splice in the MAP until your tuner has confirmed that he's calibrated the data and you've uploaded a starter tune into an ECU.

What youre looking for with MAP sensor calibration data is a sheet that compares pressure vs. voltage. That's what the tuner is going to input in the tune file so your car can read air volume and enrich accordingly. The place to get that data is to email the manufacturer of the MAP sensor itself (like Bosch, Hitachi, Delphi, etc., not Mazda, Ford, or a tuner) It doesn't matter if the MAP sensor came off the same model car or not... (2nd EDIT- I'd think this is obvious, but you'd need to get a 2 or 3 wire etc MAP sensor to match what came originally in your car) you're concerned about calibration data & fitment. You can get creative on fitment or have a shop install it. Also - don't completely get rid of the old sensor/plug location in case you want to go back to stock.


(3) I suggest buying another ECU and having it flashed for your VIN before starting this project. Use the backup ECU for tuning and keep the stock one fresh in case you wana sell the car later.

... THEN you can look at what's possible for making boost.
 
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