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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys

I've been looking at drivetrain upgrades for my little 2.0 since I've ruled out forced induction.
However I can't find anything on drivetrain upgrades apart from the fact that the concept Mazda clubsport3 had an upgraded drivetrain from a Cx-5 iirc.

Does any know where I should look to get aftermarket upgrades for the drivetrain?

Interestingly I saw reports that MS3 will have a forced induction petrol engine because Mazda resolved the high compression ratio issue. Does anyone know much about the solution and the possible costs of replicating it on a 2.0?


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Im not sure why kind of upgrades you are looking for. If you think your going to get a lot more power out of the car just forget it. You can get some small gains if you spend a couple grand.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I'm looking for performance upgrades for the drivetrain to improve acceleration. Not sure where to look though and I don't know how much it costs. Haven't found anything yet.

Are there any upgrades available that you guys know of?


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The only upgrades that most people do are intake, exhaust, possibly headers, and then if it's manual maybe an upgraded clutch and lightened flywheel. Not much else you can do without forced induction.
 

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I can't tell if your trolling or not. Do you even know what drivetrain is or did you just learn that terminology off of some Xbox racing game?

Drivetrain has nothing to do with power. It's simply the mechanical side of putting the power to the wheels. Basically it's your transmission, transaxle, final drive, differential.

Besides maybe changing you final gear ratio to allow for better acceleration (which will lower top speed and you will be at a stupid rpm at highway speed), there not much you can do.

The reason you'll hear some people talking about drivetrain upgrades is to "beef" it up because they're putting down so much power they are worried they'll break their weak factory drivetrain that wasn't designed for such power. When you beef up a drivetrain the car actually puts down a little less power to the ground because the engine has to move much heavier and durable parts to get the power to the ground. But it's obviously nothing to complain about when you have that much power and plus it's better than tearing apart your axle.

I think the concept your talking about is using the suv drivetrain because it's beefier, so they can throw more power into it without breaking it. Simply using a beefier suv tranny and drivetrain without upgrading the power plant will make the car feel like a slug. .
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yes I want to improve acceleration not power. I know most power mods are pointless unless jumping from Na to forced induction.

I was thinking along the lines of what you mentioned about changing the final drive ratio as this was what Mazda did with their Sema concept Clubsport 3. So I suppose one way is to go down this route but the trade off is top speed and apparently torque. If I go down this route is there a way to minimise the trade off or should I assume the manufacturer had already done that?

I'm still relatively new to cars as m3 is my first car and I only started taking an interest in cars/mods/etc after I got this beautiful sedan. I'm still not really across how the trade off between acceleration and torque works in the case of final drive ratios.

The other thing I mentioned about forced induction; I recently discovered that the next Mazdaspeed3 will most likely use the high compression petrol engine with a turbo. I'm curious how this can be done because Mazda appears to have done it. I'm canvassing the forum because someone might know how it was done and how much it may cost for me to replicate that setup. Do you have any knowledge/insight you would share in this regard?

I'm not here to troll, just to learn. And what does Xbox have to do with it? :(


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Discussion Starter #7
Also the reason I asked about drivetrain as opposed to power train is because that's where as you say the energy from the engine gets transferred to the road. I'm not looking for free power; I know about the law of conservation of energy.

What I'm looking for a way to amplify that power/acceleration/torque. Levers and gears are some ways that machines can amplify power. I don't know what I don't know. Maybe there is something in the drivetrain (outside of final drive ratios) that can amplify one of: power/acceleration/torque


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Interesting point about the high compression ratio + turbo. I didn't realize they had announced it yet. In the mazda magazine they mentioned a revolutionary breakthrough by mazda engineers, and I think thats what they are talking about.
 

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Pretty positive (at least 99.9999999%) that no one has even broken open a Sky transmission except maybe SpeedSource, and done anything to the transmissions. Not that it matters because I can guarantee no one even makes gears for it.


You're looking for power. You aren't going to get anything out of the transmission like you think you could. I'm entirely confused by this conversation as well and not sure what you want.


You want more power... but don't want to touch the engine?
It doesn't work like that.
 

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I've said it before and I'll say it again. And I know a lot of people are gonna hate on me for this but don't kill the messenger. I'm just simply quoting a source from automobile mag:

"The Mazda engineer reportedly told AE that the 3’s 2.0-liter Skyactiv four-cylinder engine, which makes 155 hp in conventional guise, could be tuned to 200hp and a 7000-rpm redline."

Now everyone flips out when I say this but I honestly think with a completely new tune, everything, timing, retarding/advancing, changing cam timing, fuel ratios, tunning on premium fuel, raising rev limit, (because we all know it's bullshit) etc etc. This engine can get close to 200hp-- it's coming straight from the engineer.

And everyone's gonna reply with "no way man you really think they left that much power on the table" yes I do because there's a trade off, they couldn't make that power and also have 40mpg.

Plain and simply they made a high compression engine that produces a lot of energy and they tuned all that energy to get a whooping 40mpg badge. How do you think it get that much MPG? it's a ton of energy being produced out of a 14.0:1 engine. They tuned it this way because that's what would sell. A 200hp mazda 3 that only gets 27 mpg on highway and has to take premium wouldn't do as well in this segment. They used all that energy from the 14.0:1 compression Engine and tunned it conservative as shit to sip on gas and make reasonable power while delivering amazing gas mileage that is unheard of for an N/A engine of its size.

Also, The 2014+ model has the 14.0:1 compression while the 2012-2013 skyactiv's have 13.0:1 compression. While keeping the same hp and increasing fuel economy. So again they used that energy to get even more mpg and not power. Comparing tunes on skyactivs from 2013 is irrelevant because 2014+ has more compression. Simply put the only other motors with this high compression were the 2.0 liter k20a2 which indeed produced over 200hp stock from factory. That was over 12 years ago with this technology on a 2 liter engine tuned for power and on premium which made shit gas mileage.

Don't tell me it can't be done because of history. This is the first and only engine produced that is 2.0 liters with 14.0:1 compression and tunned to 40MPG
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Pretty positive (at least 99.9999999%) that no one has even broken open a Sky transmission except maybe SpeedSource, and done anything to the transmissions. Not that it matters because I can guarantee no one even makes gears for it.


You're looking for power. You aren't going to get anything out of the transmission like you think you could. I'm entirely confused by this conversation as well and not sure what you want.


You want more power... but don't want to touch the engine?
It doesn't work like that.

No I don't want more power.

I want a better way to utilize the existing power on a m3.

Power doesn't mean much if it's not used correctly. The Nissan Gtr is an example of what I'm talking about. It has a less powerful engine than a lot of Ferrari's, Porsche's etc out there and yet it can outrun those cars as the below will show.


So no I don't agree with your generalization that I can only get power from the engine. Also I'm not talking about transmission, I'm talking about the drivetrain.

There are lots of variables to the performance equation other than just engine power. The complexity and the multifaceted nature of F1 racing also goes to show this.

I'm not saying that I want my car to perform like an F1 car or a Gtr. I just was hoping someone had ideas applicable to the drivetrain that can improve performance characteristics with no downside. I know already that I can tune/turbo/or even change the engine altogether. Those are good ideas and keep them coming! But I get the feeling that the drivetrain usually gets overlooked and maybe someone knows if it can be improved in that area. Maybe not and I'm just being silly. Like I said, I don't know what I don't know and the whole point of this is to find out something new.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I've said it before and I'll say it again. And I know a lot of people are gonna hate on me for this but don't kill the messenger. I'm just simply quoting a source from automobile mag:

"The Mazda engineer reportedly told AE that the 3’s 2.0-liter Skyactiv four-cylinder engine, which makes 155 hp in conventional guise, could be tuned to 200hp and a 7000-rpm redline."

Now everyone flips out when I say this but I honestly think with a completely new tune, everything, timing, retarding/advancing, changing cam timing, fuel ratios, tunning on premium fuel, raising rev limit, (because we all know it's bullshit) etc etc. This engine can get close to 200hp-- it's coming straight from the engineer.

And everyone's gonna reply with "no way man you really think they left that much power on the table" yes I do because there's a trade off, they couldn't make that power and also have 40mpg.

Plain and simply they made a high compression engine that produces a lot of energy and they tuned all that energy to get a whooping 40mpg badge. How do you think it get that much MPG? it's a ton of energy being produced out of a 14.0:1 engine. They tuned it this way because that's what would sell. A 200hp mazda 3 that only gets 27 mpg on highway and has to take premium wouldn't do as well in this segment. They used all that energy from the 14.0:1 compression Engine and tunned it conservative as shit to sip on gas and make reasonable power while delivering amazing gas mileage that is unheard of for an N/A engine of its size.

Also, The 2014+ model has the 14.0:1 compression while the 2012-2013 skyactiv's have 13.0:1 compression. While keeping the same hp and increasing fuel economy. So again they used that energy to get even more mpg and not power. Comparing tunes on skyactivs from 2013 is irrelevant because 2014+ has more compression. Simply put the only other motors with this high compression were the 2.0 liter k20a2 which indeed produced over 200hp stock from factory. That was over 12 years ago with this technology on a 2 liter engine tuned for power and on premium which made shit gas mileage.

Don't tell me it can't be done because of history. This is the first and only engine produced that is 2.0 liters with 14.0:1 compression and
tunned to 40MPG




Hang on, my 2014 Mazda 3 is 13:1

ImageUploadedByAG Free1418268158.562086.jpg


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As I understand it, tuning may help you achieve your goal. There are two tuning companies that post regularly on this forum....Dynotronics and another one (I don't know if company #2 is a approved vendor or not, so I won't mention the name). Read the tuning threads from both of these companies (use the SEARCH feature). According to various members here, you'll gain power and torque along with a more responsive vehicle. I would shy away from breaking the factory seal on a transmission/final drive unless it needs to be rebuilt.

I just looked at the second video you offer to prove your point....Did you notice the mods they did on the Evo? Different cams, different injectors, switch to E85 fuel, and a boost of the turbo to 28psi. That's all engine mods, not drivetrain (what you perceive to be the drivetrain).
 

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Also to achieve this I'm not talking about a simple chip to fool a/f ratios or even a piggy back ecu. I'm saying this tune could be achieved with a complete standalone ecu and by building a new map from the ground up by a very experienced tuner. Problem is there's not a standalone ecu developed for our car because the market isn't big enough to justify a team of engineers to design one and market it. Also it would be close to a grand, and how many of us would buy that, and do a complete tune for an extra 40hp while sacrificing our great gas mileage and have to run on premium. - I probably would.
 

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Also to achieve this I'm not talking about a simple chip to fool a/f ratios or even a piggy back ecu. I'm saying this tune could be achieved with a complete standalone ecu and by building a new map from the ground up by a very experienced tuner. Problem is there's not a standalone ecu developed for our car because the market isn't big enough to justify a team of engineers to design one and market it. Also it would be close to a grand, and how many of us would buy that, and do a complete tune for an extra 40hp while sacrificing our great gas mileage and have to run on premium. - I probably would.
I think you could get really close to 200 hp if you had an intake, upgraded the entire exhaust, including an even more free flowing 4-2-1 exhaust header for the 2014 model, and took advantage of all this with a proper tune. You would not need to go too much further, beyond perhaps raising the rev limit, if that's actually safe and beneficial for skyactiv engines. The 2012-13 models only differ by an inferior 4-1 header, which led to programming of a lower AFR, and more conservative cam and ignition timings. The header helps prevent hot exhaust gas from entering opposing cylinders, thereby allowing these more aggressive tune settings (MAZDA: SKYACTIV-G | ENGINE | SKYACTIV TECHNOLOGY).

In theory, if they developed an awesome aftermarket performance header for the 2012-13 and 2014+ models (could fit both cars if designed correctly), 2nd gen and 3rd gen skyactiv's would make the same power in the hands of the right tuner. I see myself hitting close to 17-20% power bump (~181-186 hp flywheel) running 94 octane in my 2012 skyactiv with a SRI, exhaust and advanced skyactiv tuning methods by OV Tuning. With a more free flowing 4-2-1 header and tune to take advantage of it, power would definitely climb higher. As an example, huge power gains were observed from race 4-2-1 headers in Honda's. I think similar would apply here.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I think you could get really close to 200 hp if you had an intake, upgraded the entire exhaust, including an even more free flowing 4-2-1 exhaust header for the 2014 model, and took advantage of all this with a proper tune. You would not need to go too much further, beyond perhaps raising the rev limit, if that's actually safe and beneficial for skyactiv engines. The 2012-13 models only differ by an inferior 4-1 header, which led to programming of a lower AFR, and more conservative cam and ignition timings. The header helps prevent hot exhaust gas from entering opposing cylinders, thereby allowing these more aggressive tune settings (MAZDA: SKYACTIV-G | ENGINE | SKYACTIV TECHNOLOGY).



In theory, if they developed an awesome aftermarket performance header for the 2012-13 and 2014+ models (could fit both cars if designed correctly), 2nd gen and 3rd gen skyactiv's would make the same power in the hands of the right tuner. I see myself hitting close to 17-20% power bump (~181-186 hp flywheel) running 94 octane in my 2012 skyactiv with a SRI, exhaust and advanced skyactiv tuning methods by OV Tuning. With a more free flowing 4-2-1 header and tune to take advantage of it, power would definitely climb higher. As an example, huge power gains were observed from race 4-2-1 headers in Honda's. I think similar would apply
here.


Umm we already have headers in our m3 2014
http://m.motoring.com.au/news/2013/small-passenger/mazda/3/the-manifold-virtues-of-mazda3-37705




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Discussion Starter #19
As I understand it, tuning may help you achieve your goal. There are two tuning companies that post regularly on this forum....Dynotronics and another one (I don't know if company #2 is a approved vendor or not, so I won't mention the name). Read the tuning threads from both of these companies (use the SEARCH feature). According to various members here, you'll gain power and torque along with a more responsive vehicle. I would shy away from breaking the factory seal on a transmission/final drive unless it needs to be rebuilt.

I just looked at the second video you offer to prove your point....Did you notice the mods they did on the Evo? Different cams, different injectors, switch to E85 fuel, and a boost of the turbo to 28psi. That's all engine mods, not drivetrain (what you perceive to be the drivetrain).


Yes I could definately do a tune but as I've read in the forums I don't think dynotronics has released one? Appreciate your point about the search feature which I had done a lot of already.

Also to clarify the mods that I want to talk about are drivetrain mods or forced induction mods. I don't know if there are any. That's what I'd like to find out. For this purpose I've removed the 2nd vid. Also just to clarify what I perceive to be 'drivetrain':

" The drivetrain of a motor vehicle is the group of components that deliver power to the driving wheels. This excludes the engine or motor that generates the power. In contrast, the powertrain is considered as including both the engine or motor, and the drivetrain."


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Discussion Starter #20
Also to achieve this I'm not talking about a simple chip to fool a/f ratios or even a piggy back ecu. I'm saying this tune could be achieved with a complete standalone ecu and by building a new map from the ground up by a very experienced tuner. Problem is there's not a standalone ecu developed for our car because the market isn't big enough to justify a team of engineers to design one and market it. Also it would be close to a grand, and how many of us would buy that, and do a complete tune for an extra 40hp while sacrificing our great gas mileage and have to run on premium. - I probably would.

Is it possible to get a tune that doesn't damage mpg whilst increasing power? Or should I assume that's been done by Mazda already?




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