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Considering Supercharger on Skyactiv

40K views 51 replies 9 participants last post by  JoeMini 
#1 · (Edited)
*UPDATE 10/11/2022 - Have been running the supercharger for 20k miles and it's great, more than 50 Skyactiv supercharged engines running around now. To date there has been one known defect that happened, where the supercharger was replaced under warranty, and may be a second case that is being investigated. All around amazing
These Skyactiv engines are fantastic with boost, switching to the smaller pulley soon, to get the peak boost up to ~9psi



I know I know, I had told myself that I was NOT going to boost this car... buuuuuut now I'm scheming :)
*cross posting from Mazda6 forum to get more input - Considering supercharer on the 6

Eventually I plan to get an NC2 Miata and make a boosted track monster with 15psi+, and I know the 6 will never be THAT, but after reading about the Kraftwerks complete supercharger kit for that car started to inspire me to do that to the 6. Instead of gaining +140hp, with this motor I think we're looking at only gaining +50hp

GOALS/POWER: A reasonable level of boost, figure at least +50hp, while maintaining longevity/daily-driver ability.

*UPDATE-
VT-Racing - Anrot Industries
A new Chinese manufacturer (bunch of products released in june 2019) of twin/screw superchargers for dozens of models of car, most don't apply to American markets, but includes a kit for 2.0L and 2.5L Skyactiv motors, at <6psi peak boost.

*UPDATE 3/5/21-

Still in regular contact with VT-Racing, working on possible ways to execute transactions.
They are working on detailed installation instructions, said they will have a draft for me at the end of March.
Installation looks fairly straightforward, mostly replace intake manifold with super and fit the radiators on. They claim their technicians can do the Skyactiv install in 90 minutes.
Obviously I'm expecting to take a LOT longer than that, since it'll be my first install and I will be VERY careful... But looks definitely DIY doable.

*Superchager Kit includes remote tuning via MazdaEdit, much like OVTune.

COST: with tariffs and working out details of making this happen, expect complete system to be $5k. (expect/hoping for 0-60 <5.5 sec, 1/4 mi < 13.8 sec)
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DRTuned will support tuning for forced induction for $999, if for any reason separate tuning is needed.

Systems Considerations/Thoughts
  • AIR - Intake/Throttle body/MAF: Stays same - the 2.5L already uses the same one as the 2.5T, so I think that'll work.
  • FUEL - Injectors/Pump: Stays same - I'm assuming the existing injectors could handle +25% duty cycle. If needed may try to use injectors from the 2.5T version.
    • Water/Meth Injection - May consider, but more in the nice to have category.
  • TUNING - DRTuned will support forced induction tuning for $999, plus the VT-Racing kit includes remote tuning using MazdaEdit
  • TRANSMISSION - should be ok, but going to change fluid more regularly to be cautious. AFAIK the same transmission is used in the 2.5T, all indications are that it can handle this just fine. It's less clear that the Manual transmission can handle the power though.
  • ENGINE - It's hard to know how much the internals of an engine can take, how over-engineered are the pistons/rods/connectors/etc. Currently targeting system that only runs 6psi max, which should be fine.
COST: $4,200-$8,000 $2,400 Supercharger - Rotrex C30
Rotrex Superchargers build their boost gradually as RPMs rise, so it's very gentle stresses on the engine/trans/drive shafts.
Plan to lower the redline to aid longevity (at least down to 6000rpm, likely even lower on my buddy's cx5 with different pulley size to give more boost at lower rpms)
Reference: 16psi doubles air volume, so every 1psi is 6.25% more air volume.
Example range of boost/rpm that I think would be very safe.
@3000rpm 2psi +12% air volume , ~7% real HP gain
@6000rpm 8psi +48% air volume (Redline, peak possible boost), ~29% real HP gain
estimation that 70% of are volume increase converts to power gain, so in above example that's a peak of 29% power gain
 
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Discussion starter · #3 ·
Before you go spending that much money on parts, you really need to find out if it will work...chances are it won't. Nobody has yet successfully developed a forced induction tune solution to add either a supercharger or turbocharger to the SA-G engine outside of the kits for the 2.0 MX-5 ND platform, and thats a totally different ECU so that won't work. CorkSport has been trying for a couple years now with nothing really workable to show for it.

The NC2 is totally different, and has plenty of aftermarket support for just about everything. If you are going to spend that much money, the NC2 is the place to do it, not the Mazda 6.
Those are fair points, but I'm probably 5+ years away from getting a dedicated fun car (3 teenagers, etc.), which got me thinking.
Also, there is extra appeal in making something totally unique.

As for the Corksport turbo, well turbo is a VERY different thing, and would be MUCH harder to make work (partially because of variable boost and especially because of the high compression ratio and the amount of work that Mazda did with the exhaust manifold to maximize scavenging to keep combustion chamber temps down).

As for tuning, well I've been through multiple rounds of remote tuning on both my 6 and my 3 with great results. In this case we would be targeting low boost that is completely predictable psi/rpm, which seems quite doable. I expect that using standard MazdaEdit path means we can't maximize power out of it like a fully mature power platform, but should be sufficient for this purpose.

I am under no illusion that this will be easy ;)
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
A turbo is no different than a supercharger when it comes to tuning...both are forced induction (just accomplished by different means) and would present the same issues that would need to be addressed.
Tuning the naturally aspirated motor is not at all the same as tuning for forced induction. Before going any further, you need to discuss your options with some tuners, and not just any tuners. Have you talked to Rafael about this?
That's funny I was just sending email to him, and other potential tuners.

All due respect, yes turbo and supercharger both push air into the motor, but there is some major differences that make it vastly easier to tune for a super, and safer:
  1. A turbo impedes exhaust, causing back pressure, significantly increasing heat, particularly cumbustion chamber Temps.
  2. A turbo has variable boost at a given rpm, depending on throttle timing and spool
Thus a turbo is vastly more difficult to tune for... But yes I will ensure I have means to tune for it before spending a bunch of money on this 😁
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Dan has an automatic. Not sure if a/t for turbo (i.e. stock one from Mazda) has upgrades from a/t for naturally aspirated...
The automatic is thought to be the same for the 2.5T and much more capable of handling the extra power, AFAIK the automatic for the 2.5L and 2.5T are the same (perhaps different tune within the trans...)

We'll see where this goes...

It's looking cost prohibitive to try to make the Rotrex fit, and it would only potentially work in the 6, because the 3 & CX5 have even less under hood space.

There's a Chinese company that makes twin screw supercharger kit for 2.L Skyactiv, never exceeding 0.5bar (7psi), they claim +70hp +70tq
it's a sketchy path though, with a lot of unknowns, so I am thinking of working on group buy deal, where we pay a small deposit up front then only pay the bulk after the kit is installed and works...
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
I agree with @arathol ...that supercharging or turbo the 2.5L Sky engine will be challenging tuning it. Another option is standalone ECU like Haltech 1500, but even then im aware of tuners working on a 2.5L sky engine.
Have a look at what BBR GTI have been doing with their 2.0L non sky and sky BBR GTi for the NC.
Also have a look at XeroLimit where they have modified/supercharged 2.0L & 2.5L non sky and also sell supercharger kits : Xero Limit - Tuning & Performance Parts
Also check out FAB9 Tuning and their turbo kits for NC Fab9Tuning EFR V-Band Bottom Mount Turbo Kit (NC 06-15)
Do check the max compression that maximizes a supercharging ... i think its 12:1. Re-building or swapping your engine for a rebuilt ready engine is an option.

I am presently rebuilding a 2.0L non sky and possibly going to 12:1 (or staying at 10:1). Upgraging internals / rod bearings plus stiffer valve springsto increase redline
This build goal if rev past 8K but also keeping the future possibility to custom supercharge it with a Haltech 1500 ECU.

I just recalled after i posted this ... DRtuned does custom tunes for non sky , turbo engines. DRTuned Racing
Not sure if they can do a supercharged sky engine... I know they could do a supercharged non sky custom tune.
Yep, I've already gotten a response from DRTuned saying he can do it, if I can get a supercharger kit worked out!


Who have you been using to tune Mazdaedit?
OVTune, but it's also what DRTuned uses. It should be sufficient control for a super, based on what they've done just with me running extra high octane!
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Correct ... the skyactiv will pose more difficulty for supercharging but not impossible ... the higher compression become limiting more technical to manage . But i have read cars on MOTEC ecu with NA engines at 15:1 compression. Supercharging on a non sky with mazdedit should be no issues. The issue is no Rotrex kits out there for a FWD 2.0/2.5L mazda engine. I asked Kraftwerk about the NC kit and would most components fit a FWD confirguration and got no answer. The biggest issue is installing pulleys that work the rotrex and location will be on the opposite side of the intake ... here is how it looks on a NC: Kraftwerks MX5 Supercharger
Ya the skyactiv is limited in how much boost I think would be safe, 8si may be too much.
For the Rotrex we were evaluating custom fabricating a bracket for it to fit, but you'd have to move a lot of lines and the ABS unit which is a lot of extra cost/risk/work.

I'm hoping the Chinese company I'm in contact with is for real, though I am proceeding very cautiously, they claim to have a twin-screw supercharger for the 2.5L skyactiv engine that runs at 6psi giving 240WHP (+70), with liquid to air intercooler for $4k+

Here's claimed images of install
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Discussion starter · #17 ·
Interesting !!
I'd be on board if they have a race proven model. Like Xerolimit has with the NC.

Right now i'll stick to increasing compression and redline ... make the HP in the redline with the 2.0L
Im also having the intake exhaust flow ported... hopefully resulting in a balanced engine
and ready for the Rotrex later
Interesting, how are you having it "ported", curious what difference you would feel especially in high rpm
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
So the Chinese supercharger saga continues...
VT-Racing - Anrot Industries
The company is legit shipping all over Asia
They came onto the business sector with supercharger kits for like 20-30 engine models,
Most are not even applicable to US models
Except both 2.0 and 2.5 skyactiv engines are included!!!
But no precedent for delivery to US yet!

I had a friend that is from China call them, basically they are already selling all their stock in Asia. No established means to exchange funds and handle claimed 2yr warranty...
We'll see where this goes...
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Underneath the company only makes 3 sizes of supercharger + inter-cooler/heat-pump across couple dozen supported models (based on engine displacement) , then simply cast a different mold for the mount and shape of intake manifold.
It appears all of their systems run at 6psi and are essentially safe on any of the targeted motors. It has a little water pump in the twin-screw supercharger assembly the supposedly pulls a lot of heat out of the intake. Peak psi 2,500-5,000rpm (HP keeps going up to red line, but the torque slowly goes down).
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Updated original post, Hoping to get an order placed in April, figuring May I should have the system in hand, and by June hopefully have this thing flying ;)
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Dan have you figured out who will do the tune yet?
Yes, DRTuned has already replied that he can tune for forced induction.
But, the VT-Racing Chinese kit includes tuning as part of the package (using the same software/process as OVTune or DRTUned).
They were adament that the car should not be started with the supercharger kit until it is flashed with their base tune, then they will go through revisions.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Yeah, but you and I both have 2.5 6MT powertrains, and the 6MT will likely be too feeble to take the torque. Of course that all depends on what the torque boost is. I note that in markets where the 2.2 turbodiesel is sold - the 6MT is, I believe, another one (not the C66M-R that we have) - but likely an older design that is rated for more torque.
I will ask if there's a way to get a detuned setup, maybe softer spring in bypass valve to reduce peak psi a little to <5psi or something
Wonder if that would be enough for the manual to handle better/longer?
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
If I were about to spend this much money on a supercharger set up, right now I'd be asking those vendors some questions. Not "Can you tune it" but "Have you done this successfully before on a Skyactiv engine", and would be asking for records of past results in the form of dyno charts, feedback from others who have had it done etc. If this is the first SA-G motor they have done, I would not want to be the guinea pig for their experiments.
Doing a tune like this should be done with the car on the dyno with an experienced tuner at the controls, not done remotely by the end user in their driveway with a laptop reflashing with tune files that may or may not work..... Doing a naturally aspirated motor is one thing, but with FI things can go bad very quickly with terminal results. Did DRTuned offer any sort of warranty to replace the motor if it blows up during the process? I doubt you will have any sort of warranty from some Chinese company selling forced induction parts either.
You might also want to look into whether or not the Chinese made cars have the same ECU, and if the tuning solution is compatible with North American cars.
Let's be clear nobody has a warranty on a boosted engine... Though generally there is a warranty on the super/turbo itself.

They have installed hundreds of skyactiv G engines, majority cx5 but it's the same exact motor, and shared a few customer installs on Mazda 6.
Fortunately Mazda has very little variations worldwide. They've also checked my specific VIN and they confirmed it's the same there, Japanese built, same exact ecu and engine.

Remote tunes are safe, just take a lot longer. If you're doing a dyno tune you can usually finish in a day, versus weeks remote
DrTuned said he has remote tuned many forced induction builds without issue, it just takes longer.
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
Really....... Hundreds, and nobody has ever heard of this until now? Who exactly has done this?
Have your read the thread?...
In China!
They started selling/installing the Skyactiv supercharger in early 2019

Obviously there's a lot of unknowns and such, not pretending this is a fully known sure thing... But excited at the possibilities 😁
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
I think you'll find that we're very skeptical about that claim. People have been crying for a turbo or supercharger kit since the car came out and nothing. It's 8 years later. This is something that would be very marketable around the world - I know I'd be interested. Corksport has tried and so far failed.

If there were some sort of evidence that this has been done safely and reliably, the entire community here would be very interested. So far all the evidence we have is that the SA-G motors are a total ass to tune for FI.

Please prove us wrong. I'd love that so much.
At this point in my life I was considering buying a newer sportier car, but I realized that I really love this car and if it just had more peak power I think I would be happy with it for many years. What's more it would be truly unique, and seriously surprising at racing events

So, I am prepared to be the pioneer for this, and will share my experience...
I've looked up options/cost for getting a new low miles used engine (~$2k with installation), should the worst happen.

(note: I've driven the 2.5T and while the torque is nice the power band is too narrow, it's clearly built as an SUV engine, and my car is already as fast as the 2.5T because of the broad power band, even though my peak power is way lower. What I'm looking for is the peak power of the 2.5T + the wide power band of the 2.5L, with a bias towards HP instead of torque)

An engineer I work with is from China, still has family in the region where VT-Racing is, so he's called them and done some digging on my behalf. They have a very good reputation and specialize in showing up and installing their supercharger kits for customers (often right in a parking lot). It's not a huge company, <100 people according to official records, and given that they launched their whole line of twin-screw superchargers <1 year before the pandemic hit, has slowed their growth.
They are adamant that the kit works for any Skyactiv 2.5L (though they admitted they have mostly installed on CX5s and a few 6s), with no evidence of reduced longevity, and stand behind a 2 year warranty.

It's important to recognize that turbos are MUCH harder on engines (because of how the boost builds) and MUCH MUCH harder to tune for (since level of boost at a given rpm is non-deterministic), whereas in a super it's completely predictable so the timing/fueling maps can be way simpler. We're talking about a linear rise in boost to peak at <6psi from about 2500-5000rpm, so it's also not a lot of boost, so I'm hopeful...
 
Discussion starter · #47 · (Edited)
oops wrong thread, meant for working thread for the supercharger quest :)
edited and posted content to proper topic
 
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