2016 3rd Gen Mazda Engine Internals for Rebuild

rdfrederick87 said:

Again, talking Motor - not sure why people cant grasp that concept. Yes the MX5 is quicker - but the motor in the MS3 is better than the MX5. I even said the car itself was heaver, which would lead to likely a slower car. OP was about motor internals - lets talk about that.

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Once again, there are none except maybe a cam. If you want to be fast there are other ways. You are not going to make big power from this motor.

rdfrederick87 said:

Hypothetically if took a MX-5 motor in dropped it in a 3 I would get no real gain, if I took a MS3 motor and dropped it in my M3 - clearly I would being that it is 100+ HP over my current motor. Proving that in fact the motor is better.

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Thats not how it works. You are still chasing numbers. That does not mean its better in any way, it just means it makes more power. It does not mean in any way that the car will be faster. :bash::bash:

rdfrederick87 said:

While yes I agree with your racing comment, the one thing that is nice is the high compression which I am trying to hang onto. If (like in my OP) could get stronger internals I would take a stab at turbo. Anything right now over 5+ PSI would like result in catastrophic failure, but if the motor itself could take it - a small introduction of boost will yield high numbers based on the compression. I would likely need E85 to avoid other issues but that's fine - this isn't my daily driver.

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Once again, you need to do more research on the SkyActiv engine. The 13:1 compression ratio is the theoretical maximum based on bore and stroke. The way the motor works varies the compression according to the engine load.
You don't need stronger internals for the FI setup. Current FI units get about 250 hp from the 2.0. Thats more than enough for this car. You don't want to go much more than that or you risk blowing up the rest of the driveline. The transmission, clutch, halfshafts all would need to be upgraded. There is no way to be fast on a road course in a high power FWD car without a limited slip front differential.
Again, this chasing numbers is foolish. The car will never be a race car no matter how much wish it to be. If you are going to throw a lot of money at your car, get the important stuff and do it right. There is more to making a car go fast than power. Better tires- the OEM rubber sucks. Better brakes - if you are going to go fast you better be able to stop just as fast. Better suspension - if you are going to do some canyon driving or some such hooliganism you need to do more than go in a straight line. Same things apply if you intend to do track days. Why do you think that the MX5 was 10 seconds faster around Willow Springs? It wasn't because it had more power. It was because it is a faster car. There is a big difference.
If you want inexpensive useable power, get a tune. There are a couple good sources. That will get you to almost 200hp if done right.

arathol said:

Once again, there are none except maybe a cam. If you want to be fast there are other ways. You are not going to make big power from this motor.


Thats not how it works. You are still chasing numbers. That does not mean its better in any way, it just means it makes more power. It does not mean in any way that the car will be faster. :bash::bash:

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Just think about that for a minute. That's like saying if you put the MX-5 motor inside the MS3 with no weight reduction that it would produce the same numbers.

arathol said:

Once again, you need to do more research on the SkyActiv engine. The 13:1 compression ratio is the theoretical maximum based on bore and stroke. The way the motor works varies the compression according to the engine load.
You don't need stronger internals for the FI setup. Current FI units get about 250 hp from the 2.0. Thats more than enough for this car. You don't want to go much more than that or you risk blowing up the rest of the driveline. The transmission, clutch, halfshafts all would need to be upgraded. There is no way to be fast on a road course in a high power FWD car without a limited slip front differential.

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So your telling me I can just jam 15 PSI down its throat and the internals will be just fine because its FI - get real. Perhaps your the one that needs to do some more research - to think the factory fuel efficient naturally aspirated motor will take any set amount of boost is silly, especially if it was driven hard. Agreed, transmission would need to get upgraded as well to support the extra load, but need to figure what the load is first.

arathol said:

Again, this chasing numbers is foolish. The car will never be a race car no matter how much wish it to be. If you are going to throw a lot of money at your car, get the important stuff and do it right. There is more to making a car go fast than power. Better tires- the OEM rubber sucks. Better brakes - if you are going to go fast you better be able to stop just as fast. Better suspension - if you are going to do some canyon driving or some such hooliganism you need to do more than go in a straight line. Same things apply if you intend to do track days. Why do you think that the MX5 was 10 seconds faster around Willow Springs? It wasn't because it had more power. It was because it is a faster car. There is a big difference.
If you want inexpensive use able power, get a tune. There are a couple good sources. That will get you to almost 200hp if done right.

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Sure it was faster around Willow springs because it was set up correctly- but you have to give reason. If the car is structured for track but lacks power it will loose, but so will a car that has power but lacks structure - it goes both ways.

As for upgrades. I am already 90% of the way through those, that's why I am asking about motor. I am currently running upgraded springs, struts, rubber, wheels, sway bars, cambers, strut bar, end links - Just waiting on brakes. I haven't done a tune yet because I am waiting on the motor solution if any. I am not going to tune it and then re-tune it after rebuild.

rdfrederick87 said:

Just think about that for a minute. That's like saying if you put the MX-5 motor inside the MS3 with no weight reduction that it would produce the same numbers.

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No, read what I said. More power does not equal a better motor or better performance, period.
That much power in the Mazda 3 can be detrimental to performance.

rdfrederick87 said:

So your telling me I can just jam 15 PSI down its throat and the internals will be just fine because its FI - get real. Perhaps your the one that needs to do some more research - to think the factory fuel efficient naturally aspirated motor will take any set amount of boost is silly, especially if it was driven hard. Agreed, transmission would need to get upgraded as well to support the extra load, but need to figure what the load is first.

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As I said before, this motor is not a good platform for major power and the best you can reasonably expect with FI right now is 250 hp or so without risking blowing it up. That means not using 15 lbs of boost. 7 maybe 8 but not 15. You would need to lower the CR to do that and strengthen some other components. Mazda has already done this with the new CX9 with the 2.5 turbo motor that has 10:1 compression. Again, you really need to research how this motor works before you go throwing money at it.

rdfrederick87 said:

Sure it was faster around Willow springs because it was set up correctly- but you have to give reason. If the car is structured for track but lacks power it will loose, but so will a car that has power but lacks structure - it goes both ways.

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Both cars were as built, no upgrades. So far, your reasoning appears to equate power to being fast on the track. The above cars proves that assumption to be incorrect.

rdfrederick87 said:

As for upgrades. I am already 90% of the way through those, that's why I am asking about motor. I am currently running upgraded springs, struts, rubber, wheels, sway bars, cambers, strut bar, end links - Just waiting on brakes. I haven't done a tune yet because I am waiting on the motor solution if any. I am not going to tune it and then re-tune it after rebuild.

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The only upgrade you will find fairly easy to locate would be cams from a Miata. Other than that, there is nothing other than the usual ricer SRI mods and performance exhausts. You can't even find a header for the 3 as the factory part is nearly perfect. All attempts at "improved designs" have failed miserably.
Thats not saying it can't be done. If you have a lot of money to toss at it, custom rods can be fabricated, maybe a stronger crank too. The overall design might not work well for higher rpm applications though. The head has room for improvement. Port and polish can make a bit more power, maybe bigger valves. The plastic intake is the weak point here.
Get the tune, see where it gets you. You can always retune for future changes. That way you know if those changes actually did anything and if so what gains were made.
Seems to me if you are going through all this just to get a few extra hp, just pull the motor and stuff in a Honda Vtec. Might be cheaper and easier.

rdfrederick87 said:

lol For starters, they didn't offer the Speed in 2016, or else I would have picked it up. I didn't by an older one cause I wanted a 0K car to work with and didn't want someones driven hard car to start with. Secondly its call I enjoy building/modifying cars, built 2 cars prior - I am not chasing corvette speed. I enjoy working on cars. Decided I'd give Mazda a try.

Some off us don't like the "off the shelf" and take pride in progressing a car

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Fiesta ST, Cobb stage kit, plus suspension, ect ect.......Focus ST, Cobb stage kit, plus suspension, ect ect.......both are not "perfect" off the shelf but do give you a much better platform to work with for power modifications which is obviously what your chasing. You like modding cars, awesome, thats why many of us are here. But you need to be realistic about your desire to gain power from this particular Mazda powertrain, it just wasn't built for it, as you are now finding out. Personally I would have done more research before taking possession of a brand new car that I had plans to modify, especially if power increase is on your list. Your being lambasted simply because you didn't do your research before taking possession and beginning the build. Your over halfway done and only just now researching about power mods, poor planning makes for a poorly finished project. I promise you, your better off trading in the Mazda now for a Focus ST and modding that thru the same process your attempting on the Mazda. It will be a much more enjoyable experience and much more rewarding. Don't let us all stop you either from continuing the Mazda build if that is truly what you desire, but just be prepared for disappointment in the engine modification department. Happy motoring.

Interesting thread.

I am enjoying my 2016 3 speed 2.0, but would love to have more power. My tune is starting soon. My understanding so far is intake, exhaust and tune “CAN” make 170 whp, and I am speculating from reading that the two cams can add another 30 to make 200 whp. Nice improvement from 130 whp stock.

My question is, will this added horsepower overburden the engine or power train or breaks or other components?

I would have though engines were an exact science so there would not be all this speculation and debate, but obviously that is not true.

I have so much to learn.

And many more questions, but this is enough for now.

Peace (no i'm not a hippie, i'm just older)

For all those that think this engine needs re-building just to get the most in N/A, have a look at Turbosource's Turbo Miata which has the same 2.0, 13:1 compression skyactiv engine. With around 13 psi boost, muffler & down-pipe, and e85, the engine made 260 whp and 292 tq on a dynojet with OV tune, more possible with a midpipe:

https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=618173&page=18
(if you don't have access to the dyno post, its on Turbosource's Facebook page)

I'd say the engine is quiet strong with the stock internals considering that they've been abusing it with hard launches, burn-outs, parking lots stunts, and track days for many months now. They also mentioned that they did over 300 pulls and ran the car on 17 psi for a while with no issues. They later ran the car on 91 pump gas, and still managed to get 235 whp with 10 psi and a mid-pipe:

https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=618173&page=21


Edelbrock will also be releasing a lower pressure supercharger soon (<10 psi), and they don't plan on upgrading any internals. They are also talking about offering a powertrain warranty...

https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=624563


Note that the engine becomes limited by its small cylinder head intake (mainly) and exhaust ports. That is why it makes more torque than horsepower on boost, and the power dies quickly in the top-end. To get much more out of the top-end, the engine would benefit from some porting and higher flow cams.

As of this point, the highest 3rd party dyno I've every seen before for the 2.0 NA has been from this individual and his Miata ND. He made 181 whp corrected (up from 140) and 185 whp uncorrected with stock internals, the Goodwin 4-2-1 long-tube header, cat-back, intake, E85, and an OV tune. The engine revs to 7600 rpm NA in stock trim with no issues... Keep in mind that this is a heartbreaker Mustang dyno, so expect more on a dynojet (around 10 more whp):

https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=637723
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=637723&page=2